Origins, Calling, And Soweto Roots

Magogodi Makhene 0:01

And my ancestors kept calling and calling, and I was like, nobody is home, nobody's picking up the phone. So they're like, oh, okay. This one, ke cleva, she doesn't really understand. We're gonna put her on her arse.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 0:12

Hello and welcome to Shades and Layers. I'm your host, Kutloano Skosana Ricci. Today, my guest is fellow South African and award-winning author, founder of Love is a Kind of Cure, host of the podcast, Madame Speaker says, and all-round awesome person, Magogodi Makhene. Earlier this year, we featured an episode from Magogodi's podcast on the Shades and Layers timeline. And if you did listen, then you know that she's a true force. Today, she's here to tell us her origin story and how she helps women of color to walk in their purpose, see their undeniable power, and stop playing small. Magogodi believes she is walking in her own power with this work, and in fact, she says she was called by her ancestors to do this work. She truly believes in the power of storytelling, and now I will let her tell us how everything connects and what it's all about in her own words. Can you describe yourself in your own words?

Magogodi Makhene 1:15

I am that energy field. That's probably the most important thing to me. I am my ancestor's daughter. Um I am a woman who grew up in Soweto, South Africa. That is integral to what has shaped me, what informs me, how I see the world, how I celebrate the world, how much full of color I am. I am a writer, I am a speaker, I am a mother now, which is fascinating. I am a toddler mom, which is to say that there is a two-year-old who is the boss of my life 100%. I have submitted. I still fighting it. Around like year one and a half, I was like, okay, you're in charge. Um, I'm a wife. I'm so many roles. The most important thing to me is who my people shaped me to be. Yeah. Who's somebody who looks people in the eye, who is somebody who exudes kindness. I hope that that's at the end of the day, uh, how people feel around me because that's what they showed me.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 2:24

Yeah. That kindness you seem to infuse into everything that you do. And the reason for you being in this conversation, the business side of things, you are working on imparting that kindness, that wisdom, that energy to other women of color to make sure that they succeed in whatever they pursue. So, how would you describe the company that you run? Love. Love is a kind of cure. Love As a kind of cure. Love As a kind of cure. I had it on the tip of my top. But Love As a kind of cure is your project that is an empowerment platform, an empowerment tool for women of color and organizations that help women rise. So, can you tell me how you started that project

From Social Enterprise To Writing As Healing

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 3:12

and what it actually does at its core? Sure.

Magogodi Makhene 3:15

I think I should go maybe a couple steps back and give you a little bit more of what the journey has been for me, right? Um, I'm a writer, as I said. And I came to writing in a pretty circuitous way. The best shortcut that I short left that I can give you is the ancestors really made it clear to me that this is my calling. This is something that I have to take very seriously. I was trained as a social entrepreneur in New York at some of the best schools, elite institutions at the time that were forward thinking in this NYU. I was a fellow for program in the program for social entrepreneurship. And I was running around in these circles where people were thinking really deeply around what is the triple P, right? The triple bottom line. We care about people, we care about profit, and we definitely care about the planet. That was some years ago. Things have changed dramatically around what social enterprise is called to do now. Long story short, here I am at the time. I'm leading this organization called Zenzele Circle that I started with my husband, and we're invited by a very big philanthropist to Rwanda. I came back from that project. I was the most out of body that I have probably ever been. And it showed up for me as mental health, right? And it showed up for me as not being able to get out of bed in a way that wasn't like, oh, I'm never getting out of bed for the entire day. But just that element of not recognizing myself as, you know, I really was that kind of person that I just described, like running around New York and getting all the things done, right? To go from that supertype A to not being able to get yourself out of bed was pretty scary and was pretty much like, okay, like whatever it is that I need to do to get myself back to wholeness, I will do it. That became writing. Oh, interesting.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 5:16

That became writing. That is so interesting. So you go to business school, you learn entrepreneurship, and then you come to the conclusion that you need to start writing. Yes. Okay, tell me more. I can relate. So that's why I'm asking, tell me more.

Magogodi Makhene 5:34

And you know, I I wouldn't have described it this way at the time, but recently I was in a conversation, and what I have language for now is that our ancestors show up for us. We know this in our culture, right? We're both and Amadlozi, the ancestors, Badimo, they speak to you in a myriad of different ways. And one of the ways that showed up in my life was that kind of like shaking me awake because nothing would have diverted me from that path that I was on, right? Nothing would have convinced me. I always knew that I was talented as a writer. I've known that my whole life. I've also known somehow at the back of my mind, at some point I'll put a book out, but I never really submitted. Like I wasn't, I wasn't a faithful, um, you know, there's there's there's like some language that people in churches use that kind of describes this kind of submission to a calling. You need to. I was not, I I was not, I was not good. I answer that call, lady. I was like, oh, drink, drink, phone, drink, phone, click, bye. I've got it right to you.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 6:46

Wrong number.

Magogodi Makhene 6:49

I'm sorry, Bloomberg's calling right now. Like, I can't really like speak to you, you know. And my ancestors kept calling and calling, and I was like, nobody is home, nobody's picking up the phone. So they're like, oh, okay, this one, Gitleva, she doesn't really understand. We're gonna put her on her ass. And that's why coming back from Rwanda, I now I see that was powers beyond me speaking through me to be like the path that you're on is not the path that you're supposed to be on. What happened in Rwanda? Oh God, it just became it was really clear to me that the work that I was doing did not hold the kind of deep um like things that are ordained. You know, I wasn't ordained for that work, like that wasn't my calling, that wasn't the thing that I was supposed to be doing. It became really clear on that trip. It's not that things happened in Rwanda that any other business wouldn't face. Like business is about overcoming obstacles and challenges. It became clear to me that I I didn't have what was necessary to be able to overcome those obstacles. Yeah, right. Like I didn't have it in me because I didn't have that like deep calling towards the work. Yeah, something else was calling me, and something else looks like writing. Yeah, I didn't know what I was doing, but the thing that would keep me going and give me a lot of joy was writing and writing these like bizarre stories that came seemingly out of nowhere. Almost all of them. Remember, I'm living in New York at this time and I'm writing about life experiences, not necessarily my own personal, this is fiction that happened in South Africa, some during my lifetime, but like years ago, and then some like deep, deep history. And next thing I know, I have something that looks like an application together. I send that without very much expectation to different universities, and the number one writing program in the world writes back, and I get a call actually from saying, uh, hi, uh hi.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 8:52

You see, if you put the phone down on that one.

Magogodi Makhene 8:56

Actually, I almost very funny story. I almost did put the phone down because I thought it was a prank, because it was so uplanded.

Iowa Call, Awards, And Opening Doors

Magogodi Makhene 9:05

It was so ublended.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 9:07

I can understand. I mean, I was right, I I War Writers Workshop is the pinnacle if you want to study under the best of the best.

Magogodi Makhene 9:16

Yeah. So imagine the director like picking up the phone to call you directly and invite you to like, okay, would you like to? I'm like, I'm not sure. Let me check my calendar, says girl who is depressed on her bed. I can't like.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 9:33

But that's amazing. Um, and you know, did you work on Inads during your time there? I did. I didn't have that book, by the way. I saw it. I walked into the Seattle Public Library. I think we had just moved. It was still during lockdown. So I walk into the public library, the local public library, and I see this beautiful illustration. You know, this bright yellow. First of all, that's what catches my eye. Bright yellow book cover. And then there's, you know, I'm like, hmm, that looks kind of familiar. And then I see the title in us. I was like, that is definitely South African. Nobody else would ever name a book. And then I look who's written it. I was like, right, I'm reading this. I read it and I'm like, ah, this girl was my neighbor.

Magogodi Makhene 10:25

Oh man, oh man, oh my god. Thank you for sharing this. Seattle library, like, shut up to me.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 10:32

That public library saved my life. I'm telling you. I'm telling. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 10:38

Wow. Wow.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 10:39

Yeah.

Magogodi Makhene 10:39

Yeah. So I was working, I didn't know it at the time. Everything, you know, is clear is clear. The clarity comes often from hindsight, right? Intention is there. Obviously, when I was at Iowa, I was working diligently towards something. I didn't know what the shape of that something would be. It came out and it was a collection of short stories called Inits, which then you walked into a library and voila.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 11:03

Yeah. I did not even, I did not know because I mean I'm fresh off the boat. Yes. And you know, I'm like, yeah, yeah, let's see what this is all about. And you know, there I am confronted. Who comes to find the fresh off the boat? And I'm like, oh. I have a deep affection for Seattle, by the way. I'll never get over it. It received me, and thank you for being part of that journey.

Magogodi Makhene 11:29

You're so welcome. But it's I was on the welcome committee.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 11:33

I was the chief of the welcome committee. You were chief of the welcome committee. But this book has taken you so many places. And of course, we'll come back to where it's brought you to now in your journey. But um, you know, it took you to a lot of places. I've seen some of the talks you've had as a result and some of the interviews that you've done. You know, talk about those doors that it opened for you.

Magogodi Makhene 11:56

You know, I think that it's funny that you're asking me this. I just put a video together before we spoke for the Caine Prize, right? And it's a chicken and egg. It even what you're asking, it's a little bit of a chicken and egg because one of the stories that's in the collection was a finalist for the Caine Prize. That came before I had published the book, right? So it's it's this combination of luck finding you when you're in the work, when you in the practice, right? The book publication definitely, I know that the book publication wouldn't have happened without nods along the way, like the Africa Caine Prize, because you, you know, you brilliantly said it yourself. You come off this boat, you cut you arrive in Seattle, and here's this book by this girl with a name that's very different from the typical things in Seattle, and stories that you recognize at as home. But this is in the United States. How do you convince marketers? How do you convince business people, which is what publishing is to take a story like that seriously? Well, part of the way that you do it is, I mean, this was my calculation, you go to the best of the best, and you get the nods that for those folks are validation. And you also have to not be confused, don't take those nods as a validation of you and your worth, but understand that sometimes for the work, especially when the work is about the other, especially when the work comes from marginalized places, those nods from the so-called big wigs, from the so-called pinnacle of the pinnacles, they mean something to the institutions. They mean something to the business people who are making decisions and publishing houses. So it's not lost on me. Like the doors that were open, it's it's it's this chicken and egg thing. Oh, yeah. You know, uh, you you you got some award from them. And and then also not being lost in the soup. Like, who am I in the middle of that? Yeah, that's very important. Yeah.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 14:15

This is Shades and Layers with guest Magogodi Makhene. She is the founder of Love As a Kind of Cure and host of the awesome, awesome podcast,

Oral Tradition Meets Business Storytelling

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 14:25

Madame Speaker Says. Up next, she explains how storytelling is the foundation of everything in her personal and professional life. We dive deeper into her coaching practice and the Crown Cheat Code Framework, which she breaks down for us. And we will discuss some familiar examples of powerful narratives. So you have since honed your storytelling talents and translated them into a different field. Exactly. So, yeah, how does that leap happen for Magogodi?

Magogodi Makhene 15:00

So, the best way to describe it is for me, there's never been a binary between storytelling that is oral and storytelling that's on the page. And I think that's a really important thing to call out. When we're talking about literature, when we're talking about the canon, and especially when we're talking in context with shorthands, as you and I can, right? We grew up in South Africa. The stories that I heard, and the best storytellers I know were that uncle who had many. She's already gaggling. We know those people.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 15:41

Because you know that person. You know that person, you know Omalume smangmang, like two houses down, and you know, Koko Mangmang, like a few like streets down the way, and the kids are a little bit frightened of her, then she opens her mouth. Nobody can do anything but resist listening to her, no matter how she is, right? I grew up around those voices. And for me, it's it's also two things at once. I did go to the kinds of schools that expose you to the Western canon, right? So I knew what storytelling was on the page, but I didn't see myself in the on the page. And the people who were telling hilarious stories all day, coca, see, they looked like me and they were telling stories only about us, right? So playing in both of those mediums, the spoken words, the thing that is what do you do when you're on stage to move people? To me, that was never very far from okay, I can see you've assigned Tolstoy or you've assigned Gaudima, and that's nice, like it's good writing, I can tell, right? But they move very differently on the page from the way that these people tell stories. So even when I was in the workshop at Iowa Writers Workshop, I was so enamored with this idea of how do I bring those voices I hear in my head onto the page. What does it mean for business? For business, it's I don't see a distinction between the kind of storytelling you do to let somebody understand your brand. To me, that's not different from writing a really good short short story. It's a lot of the same craft. You have to have some clarity around what's the intention, what's the the goal here? It's very different in that nobody thinks about a call to action when we're writing fiction. But if you're writing good copy and you forget to put a good call to action, like what's what's the point? What's the point? That's what I'm saying. What do you want people to do? Because it's like ching, that makes sense.

Magogodi Makhene 17:47

We're trying to make some trying to make some cash, baby. And you have kind of distilled this oral storytelling uh into a cheat code, and you call it crown. Am I correct in saying that? Yes, you are. What does crown stand for and how does

The CROWN Cheat Code Explained

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 18:04

it work?

Magogodi Makhene 18:04

So the crown cheat code is essentially asking you is it possible for you to take about 18 minutes of your life and turn it into a hundred thousand dollars of revenue? It sounds I look at her face, she's like, uh, how do you do that? I'm not a scammer.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 18:25

We wouldn't be talking.

Magogodi Makhene 18:27

I promise your audience, I'm not a scammer, I'm not a fraudster, but I do pay attention to patterns. And what I'm interested in is how do you take somebody who is really brilliant at what they do and they have the receipts to show for what they do, right? And turn them into the kind of famous expert who actually does generate from 18 minutes of speaking on stage, who does generate a hundred thousand US dollars. And the way that you do that is through intellectual property. And the crown cheat code is to help you think about okay, how do what how do I go about creating that kind of intellectual property? Crown is an acronym, you probably and and the acronym um starts with C, which is for crafting your story, right? I think a lot of times many of us don't see our stories as worthy of being told, either being told on the TED stage, that's a really big place to tell a story, or on the page, in places where we could be published as op ed experts. Yes. The statistics are actually really staggering around this. I mean, the number of people of color, and especially women of color who are published in the United States alone in 2019, that figure was like less than 5% of all books that had been published up until 2019. Up until 20. 19, look it up. All of the books that were published in the United States were 5% by people of color. I'm not talking about just black, I'm talking about like all of us, Asian, anybody, anybody with color. So really getting serious about crafting your book and getting your book on an important platform that matters. R is for rocking the mic. You have to get the skills in order to speak. And I'm really clear about this because it's wonderful to be someone who can, you know, take up space for 18 minutes on the TED talk and totally slay. But you're confused if you think the only public speaking that's happening is on those platforms. You are speak public speaking every single day.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 20:44

Every single day.

Magogodi Makhene 20:45

What you and I are doing, this is this is a platform. This is public speaking, right? That influencer that is always getting your attention, no matter how many times you say, like you swear off social media, they're brilliant and they understand how to use hooks in order to get you to listen. So public speaking, and by the way, like if you've ever stood in front of investors or clients and tried to sell them on your story, you better understand how to package your signature story in a way that sinks teeth into people and they can't forget you and what you have to say. Right? Oh, you really have to own the room. And that's executive presence. To an extent, I believe you can be trained into that. And when I say you can be trained into it, you know, we think about media training, but really I think the biggest thing is giving people permission to be themselves. Right. Right? When we talk about executive training, unfortunately, people kind of get into like these automaton things and they want to like sound really smart and they think that's corporate speak. That is the fastest way to get people to tune out of what you're saying. But leaning into your personality, whether it's I'm somebody who doesn't speak very much, I say what I what needs to be said in the room through just a couple of words, or if you're somebody who's slightly arrogant, let's find ways, let's find ways to work with what we got. Not gonna change you. So, okay, like where's the self-awareness around that, first of all? But then how do we like lean into it and make it a superpower? Could it be an arrogance that is actually like self-aware of itself in real time? Because then we're talking about something that's funny. And reading the room and having executive presence is also around understanding the power of making people feel something. You can't expect to move people towards your goal. And again, this is business. So we're talking about getting them to do something with their hard-earned money. You can't get them there without making them feel something. Absolutely. Yeah, and that taps into like being, being human, wear the crown, W, uh that famous, beautiful James Baldwin quote: your crown has already been paid for. All you have to do is fucking wear the crown. Wear the crown. And by wearing the crown, what do I mean is you should put that ish on. I love that.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 23:18

Don't say things, yeah.

Magogodi Makhene 23:19

Like, let's see the fit, girl. Like, like, and and again, what makes you feel most comfortable and come alive the most, right? Um, and also this is so important, and it it bleeds into N, which is a little bit of a cheat on my part because it's N, but it's to know your legacy and to know your why, your why is so much connected to your ancestors. You know, one of the things that I think about a lot in my work is I'm here to help women who have the receipts to turn into famous experts, which is another way of saying thought leaders. Yes, right? Yeah. And what I've just broken down, this intellectual property, this is what thought leaders have on lockdown. They have the talks, they have the books, they have the articles, they have the podcasts.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 24:11

Hello, Shane.

Magogodi Makhene 24:16

And they also have the community, but I think one of the things we have to be really strategic and thoughtful about and grounded about is how are we different as black and brown women, as thought leaders, than the fuddy duddy models that we've inherited around what a thought leader is? For me, one of the things that's a huge

Executive Presence, Emotion, And Legacy

Magogodi Makhene 24:40

driver is again returning to this theme of our ancestors and thinking about our grandmothers, a lot of whom were denied the right to read and write, forget becoming a thought leader. You know. So, how do you become the kind of thought leader who is grounded in their truths, who is thinking about legacy not just for today, but seven generations forward, right? The way that that's our heritage. Like it's not just about the ancestors, it's that the ancestors are alive in our day-to-day, but so are the generations that are waiting to be born, right?

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 25:14

That's circularity of time. Yeah, absolutely.

Magogodi Makhene 25:17

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And that's the crown sheet code. Yeah.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 25:22

So who are some of your favorite speakers?

Magogodi Makhene 25:25

Oh, that's a good one. I love people who are funny. I really love people who are funny because it's like we don't always understand how much intelligence is behind humor and how people are often able to say provocative things um and push envelopes through humor. I think about like Michelle Buteau, right? Who Michelle Buteau has an amazing, amazing Netflix special that is um, it's fiction. I think it's called The Thickest, Survival of the Thickest.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 25:56

Okay, all right. All right.

Magogodi Makhene 25:57

And she got it. But she started out as she still is a stand-up comedian, and she's hella funny. She's hella hilarious, right? Um, and she pokes at things in ways that I find really interesting. Um, of course, I I mean Michelle and Barack Obama, but for me, the way that Barack Obama is able to honestly sometimes take pretty boring shit. Like the way that he delivers is not always the most engaging, right? But I am very interested in how he moves culture through ideas. Yeah, we we often say things like, all talk is cheap, like talk is cheap. Show me the this is a dude, like he launched an entire presidential campaign and won based on a speech in 2004. Like he just got up and not like 18 minutes, folks, like four minutes at the DNC. How do you do that?

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 26:54

That's like yeah, that's witchcraft. Yeah, yeah. What was it? Audacity of hope.

Magogodi Makhene 26:58

That it yeah, I mean, that happened. Where's the audacity?

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 27:08

Where's the a little too much audacity in the streets right now? Yeah, of a different kind. Of a different kind, yes. Yeah, oh my goodness. We won't go there, not yet. No, no, focus, focus, focus, focus. Hey, it's Shades and Layers, and I'm speaking to award-winning author and coach Magogodi Makhene. So, one thing that's striking on these social media streets is the obsession with vulnerability and authenticity. Very often I find that there is no nuanced approach to these two notions, and it turns out to be sometimes a confessional or even worse, a mental breakdown in real time. Magogodi and I get into this topic, and further on, and on a lighter note, we get into the shades and layers Rapid Fire. You've mentioned individuals. I mean, you don't have to name any, but what kind of brands tend to be the ones that use the storytelling as a way to success? What kind have you seen like in stand out to you?

Magogodi Makhene 28:13

I will give you an example of a client who is someone who's building a movement all around urban development, right? Um, so I worked with this particular person on the storytelling and it was coaching that was for the brand. And what I see in that world is there's a lot of talking to each other when we're in industries where we're using words that mean a lot. It's not that they don't mean anything, but the meaning is lost when the stakes are highest. Because when we want to get people who are outside of our industry to move, to do things. In this particular case, their stakeholders were folks who were very removed from the municipality where this person was working. It was really important to distill what they were doing in the kind of language that folks would need, would find visceral and would find like, oh my God, like you're literally speaking to me. It feels like you have an x-ray in my head, right? How do you storytell using yes, what you're already doing, but making it super powerful for that person who is outside of your organization and outside of your industry? That's an example. A lot of the work that I'm doing right now is working with individuals, like the leaders themselves. So it's not

Humor, Icons, And Moving Culture

Magogodi Makhene 29:35

necessarily around the brand. It's yeah, it's it's mostly this particular individual who is an entrepreneur, who's a founder, and who's maybe even a coach themselves and wants to use storytelling as a lever to kind of get to leapfrog from where they are now in business to catapult themselves through thought leadership. So, yes, it looks like speaking, but sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's how do we work on your brand positioning as a person, right? Like your individual. Um, how do we do that in a compelling way so you're actually connecting to your potential client in a way that you're not getting through right now?

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 30:19

Yeah, yeah. And do you advise people to do this one-on-one, this type of storytelling, or should they be shouting it out there on the socials or the platforms, you know, where you can also quickly lose your message in the shuffle? Yeah. So the one-on-one that I'm alluding to is the design of the coaching that I do. So it's private, one-on-one coaching. So if I work with you, if you're interested in going deeper in this, it is one-on-one private coaching. That means it's a premium experience, right? That means you're getting something that's really high touch. You're also getting the incredible experience, both the good and the failures that I've had throughout my years, working with brands, working with universities, all of that is packaged into one experience that's bespoke to you. And then to your question, which is where do you take this kind of storytelling? Like if somebody is listening right now and was quickly jotting down, oh, the crown cheat code, I could use that. Where can you use that? You should be using that across your platform. It's gonna show up differently. It's gonna show up differently. I mean, one of the things that I'm working on right now to launch in the fall is the signature story school, right? And signature story, a signature story is something that has to, by its definition, it has to be nimble. It has to be something that can live in a two-minute, quick reel that you throw on social media like Instagram, but it also needs to have enough metal where you can take it to 18 minutes and you can build out a real and substantive 18-minute TED talk that people can get their heads around. But guess what? That's also an op-ed opportunity. Like, why should you stop at only doing it through video? This is something that could live on the page. Um, but the reason why the crown sheet code titillates so many of your senses is because your intellectual property needs to do that. You need to meet people where they are. Some people are big readers and they want long forms. So, what kind of newsletter are you putting out? Some people only consume things on social media. So, are you showing up on video? And of course, you have to be adept at presenting and holding people's attention when you're in an executive setting, right? Like if you're a business leader, if you're an entrepreneur, I'm sure you have at least some experience around that. And you also understand that you could get better at that, right? And that's the work that we're doing. Great. So, how did you use that cheat code for yourself? How did you monetize your story, Magogodi ?

Magogodi Makhene 33:03

I really I think there's there's

Brands, Stakeholders, And Clear Language

Magogodi Makhene 33:06

a story here that's worth telling, which is a transparent and a vulnerable story, quite frankly. I remember not that long ago working at a very high um one of these high-rises in New York City that's like the white shoe establishment kind of place, right? This building overlooked Crown Plaza, and we could see all of Central Park underneath us. Like this is Tony. This is people who take themselves super seriously, blah, blah, blah. Fancy, fancy as a mother, fancy, fancy, right? Working with the CEO, paid part-time hours because I was a consultant, working full-time hours, and being pulled into coaching this dude on speeches that he was giving at Davos, on speeches that he was giving, girl, girl, girl! I'm scratching my head. I'm scratching my head. Girl, no, it gets worse. It gets worse. Speeches that he was giving at fundraisers where Oprah was the dinner and he was dessert. You're killing me. Okay. Ask me how much I made from that.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 34:13

You're killing me. I I was going to ask you. Paid part-time, full-time, this devil's this Oprah. So, how much were you paid for that? I was paid zero. Uh uh no, please, I can't.

Magogodi Makhene 34:26

I was paid zero. I was paid zero because I didn't understand the value of my gifts. I didn't understand the value of what I was offering.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 34:35

That's a hard lesson. Yeah, we've all been there though. That's yes, we have all been there.

Magogodi Makhene 34:41

I said it's a vulnerable story. Like it's not pretty, it doesn't make you look any kind of smart way, right? I was I I it was an earlier version of me, right? I say this because that was one of the biggest lessons ever about my own value. And and and I think this is really important because it's easy to turn that person into a monster. I gave away my value. I said that what I have to offer is not as important as whatever I was helping this person with. And to answer your question, for me, it was a brand new day. The day I walked away and understood what didn't feel good is because I co-signed on something that was really ugly around my own value. Um, long story short, fast forward a couple of years, really doubling down on what my value is and understanding what how much I can actually like charge for things like speaking. I mean, I've been flown across the world to places like Hong Kong and paid five figures, right? Like super healthy five figures for talking for not that much time.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 35:48

Right.

Magogodi Makhene 35:48

I mean, you know, when you're giving a keynote, I don't want to make anybody think like, oh, you're not doing any much work. It is, it's a lot of work. But it's smart work. Yeah, yeah. It's not work that is how do I sit here and put in all of the hours of my life. It's not. And I mean, it doesn't hurt to be flown somewhere first class. No, not at all. So I learned the hard way about how to monetize. And I also have to say this I am wrestling constantly with what does it mean to monetize our skills and our gifts from for me, my gifts come from my ancestors. And I have to think about what does it mean to monetize that in a world that has values that are very different from the values that I want to see perpetuated capitalism and that model of monetizing people's gifts, people's labor. That's not necessarily the model that I think is going to serve humanity till like the cows come home. We do live in 2025, so I do have to keep it where I am. But I'm constantly wrestling with like, okay, well, how do I monetize? But then also how do I serve in a way that is not just about dollars?

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 37:05

No, absolutely. It has to be far more impactful than you know, just the money. Um, touch touching people's lives is actually really important. It's uh it's a very important job, so to speak. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Signature Story Across Platforms

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 37:20

So you're launching a new uh program this fall, which means which means service, yeah, and service, and service. And let me be really candid and clear about that line of service. We live in one of my god, it's it's difficult to really sum up what is happening. The demise of democracy is falling, right? So the cute models that we had around social enterprise when I was running around New York, those don't feel like they're fit for our times because the systems that they assumed, those things are being taken down in real time, yeah, right. We see people who are using WhatsApp to live stream and show us here's what's actually happening in the middle of this genocide. They're fighting a fucking genocide with a cell phone and a WhatsApp signal that's not so strong, right? We see the ramifications of crazy tariffs. I was just in the US this summer, and oh my god, like the sticker shock of how much the most ordinary things costs. Yeah, you know it's very it is note, it is a noticeable change, and I think it is not a joke. Yeah, it is not a joke, but no one will admit that. They won't. But it's but it's happening. You can cook the numbers all day, but our lived experience does not lie to us. The idea that somebody can be a full-time school teacher in the United States and have to subsidize feeding her children through going to welfare lines, like that is a sick and crazy idea. The richest country on the planet. All of these things are converging on us at the same time, and we're supposed to like just keep business going as usual. I'm supposed to just roll out this program, like, oh yeah, it's great. Like, I'm rolling out this program this particular fall, and it's called the signature story school, you should come. People are like, uh, like make these two things make sense together at the same time. And for me, my way of making meaning is I understand the power of what it means, where the dark powers who are creating this shit fuckery that we're living through, we need to have voices that are strong and that are counter and that are speaking from light and speaking from love. And those are the voices that I'm interested in pouring into, in coaching, in going far deeper than just a crown sheet code and saying, Yeah, here's exactly the work that you're doing, and here's how we amplify it. I think about there's a poet, her name is Andrea Gibson. She passed away just a couple of weeks ago. Oh, yeah, she was the laureate. Poet laureate, yeah, yes. Yeah.

Magogodi Makhene 40:23

Yes. Poet laureate of Denver. I mean, we're talking about an enormous light that just left the earth, right? And one of the ways that she talks about this particular time, I could also think about Tony Morrison and her invocing to us that this is the time when artists really get to work. Exactly. But what Andrea Gibson had to say is the way to face this kind of darkness is we have to create and we have to be louder than the voices that are voices of destruction. And for me, making all of

Monetizing Value Without Losing Soul

Magogodi Makhene 41:00

those things make sense at the same time, especially through the signature story program school, is how do I lift the voices and how do I help black, brown women who are willing to be brave enough to tell the truth and to speak it from a place of love and light, which is not the same thing as like shirking away from saying difficult things. Actually, it is to say difficult things. Yeah. How do you do that using where you've been, what you know, the fancy degrees that you have, the business that you're running, and don't make a mistake. Like the business is also part of this. Like we are telling the brand story, but we're telling it in a way that meets people where they are right now. We cannot pretend genocide isn't happening. We need to speak to that through your business, yeah, too, but in a way that is very um eyes fully wide open.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 41:57

Yeah, no, absolutely. Because uh, I actually wanted to get your take on this. There is a lot of vulnerability out there. Everybody's encouraged to be vulnerable and transparent and genuine. But sometimes I look and I'm like, girl, you need to speak to your therapist. So like you should not be telling us all of this. So, I mean, where do you advise people to kind of draw the line between vulnerability and public meltdown?

Magogodi Makhene 42:27

I want to make space for the person who is having a public meltdown. I want to do that. I'm thinking of someone very particular, pretty famous coach, had a very public, I was there meltdown. And the aftermath of it, right? The lack of holding this person and being able to just give the light and the love that was necessary. Because remember, when somebody's going through something like that, they're bleeding in front of you. It might not look like blood is coming out, but they're in the middle of bleeding, right? So there is this thing of like, okay, how do we caretake for this person? But before you get there, which is your question, and in this case, it was a mental health thing that I don't think this person had a lot of agency over whether they could melt down that way in front of us. But sometimes it's performative. Yeah. And maybe that's a little weird where somebody is using things that are traumas to I don't I don't really know what the end game is because I don't really advocate for that kind of thing. Yeah. Um but I I I think the thing to bear in mind is it's not only is it not sustainable, but there's no what can you build on top of that? Yeah. When I gave you the crown cheat code and I'm talking about intellectual property, I'm talking about work that's going to take you at least a year to hit that hundred thousand dollars that I spoke about. That 18 minutes of fame, translating that into $100,000, that takes time minimum solid year of hard work. Okay. And if you really want to double down and like grow that thing into something that supports you and your family, we're talking about you gotta be in it for the long haul. You need a time frame of five, 10 years. You need to be in the I just want to ask you the performative thing of melting in front of people. Can you can you sustain that over 10 years? And if you can, God bless you, because you should be on like Broadway, okay? And we really should be throwing money at you, but very different, very, very different.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 44:41

Yeah, so anyway, so who coaches you?

Magogodi Makhene 44:48

Um, I've had several coaches. I'm in a coaching program right now, actually. Somebody around sales. Yep. Um, she specifically works with black women. Uh-oh. Interesting. She's brilliant, and it speaks to me because again, I think the lens when we're talking about things like coaching, like therapy, I'm very particular when I'm looking for somebody to be that vulnerable with because I need to understand that you get my shorthands, right? I once saw somebody, I thought that we were going to work together. This somebody was a professional, right? This person had like DR in front of their name. Yeah. And here I am telling them about my family and what we went through and like mental health challenges. And this woman lost it. She lost it. White woman. She didn't start crying, but she was having the kind of reaction where I was holding space. Oh God, please. I'm paying for the city. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. But that happens so much more often than we want to admit or we see in real time because this is in private offices, right? She clearly did not become my therapist, but it's really important information. And it's not information that's important just for me. I think it's important for anybody who's listening. When you're looking for somebody to be your coach, to be your therapist.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 46:14

You're a heaven sent as a guest. Yes, it was my next question. Go ahead, please.

Magogodi Makhene 46:22

Um, it's not like the things that you want to look for is what kind of results have they gotten for themselves and for their clients, right? And also for me, what's really important for me, I it's not that I believe someone who looks different from me cannot serve me. Of course they can, but do they have the cultural acuity to be able to get me without me needing to explain from zero every single time? Because, like, especially if we're talking about coaching, which is usually to move the needle on something significant in my life, in my business, I am paying you, I don't have time to break down South Africa and its history of 400 plus years of violence, colonialism, abut date, slavery. Like, like, what are we doing over here? You know? And so if I'm working with a coach around

Turbulent Times And Purposeful Voice

Magogodi Makhene 47:20

money and they don't understand the unique ways that money has been wielded as an oppressive tool against somebody like me, and then they're giving me advice around sales.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 47:33

Yeah, where do you start? Yeah.

Magogodi Makhene 47:36

What are we talking about? If we're talking about vulnerability, if we're talking about vulnerability and telling your story and you're talking to somebody who doesn't understand why a black woman from Harlem might not lead first with the most vulnerable stories about her business. If you don't understand why that is and how you can help her overcome the parts that really are an obstacle to herself, if you don't understand that and her cultural context, how do you assure her should not be in this business?

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 48:09

Or you should not be serving her specifically.

Magogodi Makhene 48:12

Consider, just consider, just ideas.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 48:16

No, I agree, I agree. Yeah, I mean, you you need to be sensitive to people's um lived experiences, reality, and know what and be switched on, really. That's pretty much what it is. You need to be switched on. Part of understanding your client, yeah. One-on-one. Yeah, yeah. So um tell me, yes, one more thing, of course. The podcast. This is a new venture for you. You're speaking to really amazing people. Thank you. How did it come about and why did you choose that medium for expression?

Magogodi Makhene 48:47

Oh, I love if it's not been clear and difficult. If it ain't clear when we say it, okay. I love, I love okay. I've been a professional mouth runner since like I could run my mouth. Like, I've been sure since I love being in conversation with other humans. This is a very natural medium for me. And I put together Madam Speaker specifically because I wanted to deeper serve the woman inside of the coaching program. And some of the women, I mean, like I said, I work with an exclusive group. So even if you're not somebody who is a client, how can I serve you? Madam Speaker says is a podcast that's available, I love this part, around the world. You know this because that's what a podcast is. So somebody can be sitting and listening in Nairobi, somebody can be sitting and listening in Johannesburg, in you know, Kempton Park, like really anywhere. And that intimacy as well, that permission to be in somebody's ear that way. Um, it's always been something I've been deeply. I've always loved radio. Before there were podcasts, there was radio, and I was like, this is the jam. Yeah, this is the jam.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 50:01

So very, very rich adventure there. Fun. So let's get into the shades and layers rapid fire.

Magogodi Makhene 50:08

Oh, am I ready?

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 50:11

Quick questions. So you put some fiction out there, but let's say we do non-fiction and you have to write your memoir. What would you call it and why? Ooh, Daddy's girl. Oh, I love that. Tell me, tell me.

Magogodi Makhene 50:28

I don't know where that came from. Don't know where that came from, but I think it's self-explanatory too, no? It is, but you know, tell me about this guy. Oh my god, love of my life. Love of, don't make me cry. Absolute love of my life. Yeah, lost my dad when I was nine years old. Suicide took him out. Oh honey, so sorry. Thank you. And it's taken me many, many years to. I'm always gonna be processing that, right? Of course. Um, but then also to reconcile all parts of him, like he was such a multi-faceted and multi-like all the things human. I mean, my dad, speaking of business, my dad had a thriving business in Johannesburg, height of apartheid, 1980s. He was serving these companies like Johnson Johnson, you know, taking care of all of their fleet of cars. And he did that because he learned how to put cars together by taking them apart. Yeah, self-taught, yeah, right? Like this man was so damn brilliant, and um yeah, there's a huge story there. Yeah, huge.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 51:41

Yeah, can't wait. Can't be here for it, wait. I'll call you up every year.

Magogodi Makhene 51:50

So you know what? You should do that. I would, yeah, that's a good one.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 51:57

So, how's that memoir coming along?

Vulnerability vs Meltdown Online

Magogodi Makhene 52:00

Accountability, I love it. And uh, if you had to turn it into a movie and you had to pick somebody to play you as the lead, who would it be? Oh my god, he's a harder! Oh my god, I just want to know who you like and who you see yourself in.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 52:18

That's an impossible question. Um, there's a young woman who shares the same name as Umamawini. Nomzamo , is it? Nomzamo, Nomzamo. How could we both forget how?

Magogodi Makhene 52:34

How I mean, because forever she's, you know, Umamawini. Like her. Anyways, um, Unomzamo, uh okay, yeah, yeah.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 52:46

Aw. Lots of admiration. I can see that. Yes, yes. Nice, great. And who are you having over for dinner? Famous black woman. Tonight, you have the opportunity. Anybody, living or dead. Tony Morrison.

Magogodi Makhene 53:00

Tony Morrison, always Tony Morrison. And you know, funny story. I read in a brilliant book that I just finished recently. I read that, you know, the New York Times has that section about they ask the same question, right? But they always ask writers, who are you having for dinner? And the person who's won that contest over decades. So somebody took the trouble of collating all that information. And who are the number one writers that people consistently ask to dinner? Tony Morrison makes it to everybody's like imaginary dinner. So I guess I'm just like everybody else.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 53:37

Great. Is there anything that you would like to say that I might not have touched on? Anything burning inside you?

Magogodi Makhene 53:45

This was brilliant and is brilliant. I mean, I think one of the things that I'm not joking, and I am very much like relating it to the last thing that we just said shades and layers, the work of bringing all of our voices, specifically voices that are on the continent, and throughout the diaspora, right? Reminding everybody that brilliance is universal and it's multi-hued. That is the work of fighting fascism. That is the work you're doing in. You are doing exactly that. And I mean, it's also a damn good time. Like we just kicked. You know what I mean? We need this.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 54:25

Like, hello.

Magogodi Makhene 54:26

It needs to also have spiritual substance. Yeah, yeah.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 54:30

Absolutely.

Magogodi Makhene 54:30

But at the same time, like, like, lest we forget this is what it's about.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 54:34

This is what it's about. That's the work. That's the work. So if anybody wants to contact you, give you money, work with you, where can they get you?

Magogodi Makhene 54:44

I am Madam Speaker Says on all the things: YouTube, find me on Spotify, find me on Instagram, and I'm very easy to find. All my information is available. Perfect.

Kutloano Skosana Ricci 54:56

And that is all from Shades and Layers today. Thank you to Magogodi Makhene my fellow South African homegirl and fellow podcaster. If you haven't already, I encourage you to check out her podcast, Madame Speaker Says, you will be so inspired by all the guests that she has on there. And if you like this episode, my conversation with her, please share it with a friend and send me a message to let me know what you think. My contact details are available in the show notes. I'm Kutloano Skosana Ricci. And until next time, please do take good care.